Architecture, Mars, and VR . . . with Alfredo Muñoz

May 05, 2022

Questions: How do we design for extreme conditions and resource challenges?  Is that for Mars or Earth?

Guest: Alfredo Muñoz, Architect; Founder; Onteco; Founder, ABIBOO Studio; Chair for Memberships of the Technical Committee of Space Architecture at the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics

Digital twins?  Space architecture?  Alfredo Munoz combines astrophysics and architecture to let us pilot new ways of building in VR on Earth . . . as practice for Mars . . . to improve how we live on Earth.   He’ll share elements of a digital twin of a compound in Mars that you can engage with here on Earth to try out better ways of working, living, and creating.  He also shares his own journey through innovative architecture and bringing those skills and insights to connect with space architecture and collaborative virtual reality. 

Bio

Alfredo Muñoz is the founder of Onteco and ABIBOO Studio. He is also the Chair for Memberships of the Technical Committee of Space Architecture at the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics.

Mr. Muñoz has been considered the youngest among the most influential Spanish Architects and the youngest European Leaders (EYL40).

His clients range from Fortune Global 500 conglomerates to governments to private high-net-worth individuals on five continents.

Alfredo has been teaching and speaking at elite Universities, and his work has been featured in media outlets across the world.

He holds a Master’s in Architecture from the Polytechnic University of Madrid and a Master’s of Advanced Studies in Architecture from BarcelonaTech.

 

Mentioned Links:

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Transcript
Gigi Johnson:

I am so glad to have you on this show.

Gigi Johnson:

I have people in this show that I've known for a long time or

Gigi Johnson:

are in spaces I know really well. And I'm happy to say that

Gigi Johnson:

you are neither. That we've met fairly recently. And you're . .

Gigi Johnson:

.

Alfredo Munoz:

I'm one of the lucky ones.

Gigi Johnson:

And you're in a series of spaces -- pun intended

Gigi Johnson:

-- that I other than having a father who was an architect when

Gigi Johnson:

he was alive, I have been an observer, and not a participant.

Gigi Johnson:

Can you share a little bit what you are doing now in your two

Gigi Johnson:

main fields of adventures?

Alfredo Munoz:

Perfect. So we have been working for 10 years

Alfredo Munoz:

in the field of architecture across the world -- we will talk

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more about it. We have projects in five different continents.

Alfredo Munoz:

And for five years, I have been working also in the field of

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space architecture. And that area is connecting recently with

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other aspects of technology, like blockchain and virtual

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reality. We are currently developing a simulation of how a

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future society will be on Mars. We are calling it the

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Futureverse. But -- while the metaverse is creating a digital

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reality of something that does not exist, we are proposing the

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Futureverse as an opportunity to create in the digital field,

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something that is going to be built in the future, where

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society not only will able to interact among themselves, but

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also provide relevant feedback for that digital twin to

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continue iterating and getting better. So when it's time to get

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built, and to actually execute it, we have all the know how

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feedback from the community. So we'll talk more about that. So

Alfredo Munoz:

two fields, architecture, technology, space architecture,

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and Futureverse.

Gigi Johnson:

Wow . . .

Alfredo Munoz:

She's all somehow connected. That's . . . .

Gigi Johnson:

And you threw in Digital Twin. And all that.

Gigi Johnson:

Okay, so who are the "we" of this? Because this is not just

Gigi Johnson:

you and a mouse in your pocket? So your architecture company?

Gigi Johnson:

What are they? Who are they? Where are they? How do you have

Gigi Johnson:

so many things happening in so many cities?

Alfredo Munoz:

So I'm the founder of ABIBOO Studio, which

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is the architectural practice. We have their headquarters in

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New York, we have offices in Miami, where I am now. And also

Alfredo Munoz:

we have offices in Madrid when I'm where I am originally from,

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I'm in India. And then Onteco is the company that we have a base

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here in the US that is focusing in the Futureverse and in that

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simulation that we were talking about.

Alfredo Munoz:

And so that we don't think oh, yes, yes, to be sure that I

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fully answer your question. We have been working for more than

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two years, with a global scientists from different

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fields, experts in the fields of life supersystem, geology,

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planet . . . planetary geology, astronautics in order to ensure

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that all the ideas that we have in that simulation are actually

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backed up by science. And I'm sure we will be talking a lot

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about it, because I'm very passionate, I think it will be

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of great relevance to the audience.

Gigi Johnson:

Okay, so these are, these are two really

Gigi Johnson:

different endeavors that are not different, that they're very

Gigi Johnson:

much of an overlap, because, at least in my perception of your

Gigi Johnson:

architecture, it's very forward thinking and very futures

Gigi Johnson:

relevant. Can you talk a bit about ABIBOO -- is that the

Gigi Johnson:

right pronunciation?

Alfredo Munoz:

ABIBOO. Yeah, we ABIBOO means that we didn't have

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creativity. So AB is the first two letters of the Latin

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alphabet. And as a Westerner, obviously, my culture comes from

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from that background. But I lived in Japan for a long time.

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And we will probably talk also later about that. And IBOO means

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creativity in Japanese. And when I started my architectural

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practice, after working with some very top architects across

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the world, I decided to come up with a name that represented

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that the vision for innovation and the beginning of creativity

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is an acronym that is representing the name of ABIBOO

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Studio, which means again, the beginning of creativity.

Gigi Johnson:

Wow. And then ... that ... the group of scientists

Gigi Johnson:

you are working in, they're, they're all over the world. And

Gigi Johnson:

so you're with a large group of scientists . . .

Alfredo Munoz:

Yes, they're all over the world. They're mainly

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American and Europeans. But we have a team also in Australia.

Alfredo Munoz:

We have again many different types of fields. Not only are

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they not only scientists, but also artists that are working

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with our team, our architectural team, and our theme focus only

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on the Futureverse, in order to create that simulation of a

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future society in a very harsh environment, which is fantastic

Alfredo Munoz:

because Mars offers the opportunity to think everything

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from scratch. And by going to Mars, we are facing that we have

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to be extremely efficient with resources, we have to create

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self sufficiency, which is very connected to architecture. And

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at the same time, we need to ensure that we collaborate

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because an extreme environment like Mars is requiring that we

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work together. Otherwise we won't survive. And within that,

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all of that is bringing huge amount of opportunity not only

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to envision a near future on Mars, but also to have insights,

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which will be very relevant for making Earth a better place --

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connected to climate change, social inequality and many other

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aspects. That again, thanks to the learning that we are getting

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by creating that digital twin, we are already applying on

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Earth, with science and changes in the habits and architecture,

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materials, and some of the technologies that we have been

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developing for over two years.

Gigi Johnson:

So you've mentioned digital twin twice.

Gigi Johnson:

What do you think is a digital twin for those who have not

Gigi Johnson:

played in that space before?

Alfredo Munoz:

So these digital twin is a concept that is almost

Alfredo Munoz:

like a real time, a replica of something that exists in

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reality, but that exists only in the digital environment. The

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advantage of creating a digital twin is that we can test things

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digitally first, and see what works and what does not work. So

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once we are actually ready to build it, we can be sure that it

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works well. This is common in engineering. So once we want for

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example, to simulate how a rocket is going to perform in

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space, we create a digital twin -- a replica of that rocket --

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put it under the conditions that are going to be in space and

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then see if everything works well or not before doing an

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actual prototype. And then testing the prototype. In

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architecture is very typical as well. I mean, we have been

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creating digital twins since the 60s. But we didn't call it like

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that that term was a invented by NASA and it but the concept of

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creating a replica of something that is going to be existing in

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the near future is something that has been in our society for

Alfredo Munoz:

quite a while.

Gigi Johnson:

And I would say maybe one of the elements of it,

Gigi Johnson:

which I find fascinating, looking at it more from a human

Gigi Johnson:

system side, is it's not just the as sometimes is phrased

Gigi Johnson:

"built environment." It's not just the hard walls replicated

Gigi Johnson:

in a digital virtual space. It's also the human interaction and

Gigi Johnson:

people and . . . and behaviors that around it are in a lot of

Gigi Johnson:

the newer digital twin models are just cool building --where

Gigi Johnson:

do we put the walls and where did the cars go? But it's really

Gigi Johnson:

looking then at anticipated human behavior.

Alfredo Munoz:

Totally agree with you and that's indeed how

Alfredo Munoz:

Onteco Mars and the Futureverse started. So originally, when we

Alfredo Munoz:

were envisioning, creating ways to provide self-sufficient

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solutions on Mars, with the scientists, our mission was to

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come up with ideas that were actually relevant for a future

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settlement on Mars. But then once we got a lot of attention

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from the media -- we released the first batch of designs

Alfredo Munoz:

around a year and a half ago -- it has been all over the place.

Alfredo Munoz:

The first batch of designs were called Nüwa. So it has been in

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BBC, CNN Business Insider, National Geographic -- almost

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all the major media talked about our solutions. So then we were

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working closely with Mars Society, which is one of the

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biggest organizations related to research and investigation about

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Mars to do a space analog. The concept of a space analog is

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similar to the idea of a digital twin but in real life. So a

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space analog simulates conditions that are very

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extreme, like what will a astronauts will face on Mars or

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in low gravity environments, and that happens in a safe

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environment. So once the astronauts or the people that

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are going to be in such environment are there, if

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something goes wrong, you're not risking their lives, there are a

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lot of space analogues in . . . on Earth. The biggest one is

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MDRS [Mars Desert Research Station], which is indeed owned

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by Mars Society, in the deserts of Utah. But there are some in

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Canada, there are some in Israel, there are some space

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analogs below the ocean to simulate what will happen in

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low-gravity environments. But when we were actually working

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with Mars Society, we were thinking, well, the challenges

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that we have if we want to do some of those ideas that we

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propose for a large settlement on Mars, is that we will not be

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able to replicate the social relationships. We can replicate

the physical model:

we can create like a small building in

the physical model:

the deserts of Utah and see how people will interact with that

the physical model:

physical architectural environment that we ambition for

the physical model:

Mars.

the physical model:

But the complexity of the social aspects, were not going to be

Gigi Johnson:

So you kind of took us a little down the road

Gigi Johnson:

able to be analyzed because you cannot build a city on Mars on

Gigi Johnson:

Earth. First, because the cost will be too high. Second,

Gigi Johnson:

because you don't simulate the challenges of a harsh

Gigi Johnson:

environment and how that a difficulties will affect the

Gigi Johnson:

social interactions. And that's when technology came into place.

Gigi Johnson:

of how, how an architect ended up in the space side of life.

Gigi Johnson:

Before that happened, we were quite involved with the

Gigi Johnson:

architectural practice with virtual reality. It is not

Gigi Johnson:

uncommon for ... for architects to use highly immersive tools to

Gigi Johnson:

provide an experience of how architecture is going to be. We

Gigi Johnson:

were also quite involved with digital art, we did a

Gigi Johnson:

collaboration with Louis Vutton. They asked us to reinvent a how

Gigi Johnson:

a trunk could be in the near future. So we propose the next

Gigi Johnson:

But what was the bridge? Did they knock on your door? Did you

Gigi Johnson:

frontiers of travel as the space travel and the digital travel.

Gigi Johnson:

Right. So we have some experience with digital art and

Gigi Johnson:

digital [fields] and blockchain and NFT's. So we thought that

Gigi Johnson:

the opportunities of merging those type of state-of-the-art

Gigi Johnson:

technologies with space architecture could be an

Gigi Johnson:

opportunity to create a space analog that simulates a

Gigi Johnson:

complexities of living on Mars, thanks to technology on a larger

Gigi Johnson:

knock on their door? Were you hanging out in outer space

Gigi Johnson:

scale. And that's where community comes into play.

Gigi Johnson:

That's what you were indicating the digital twin can allow not

Gigi Johnson:

only to understand and being a highly immersive environment,

Gigi Johnson:

how we are going to be living in the future in a large

Gigi Johnson:

colonization or in a large settlement. It can be on Mars,

Gigi Johnson:

it can be anywhere, it can be even in the future here on

Gigi Johnson:

endeavors for years and science fiction -- how did you kind of

Gigi Johnson:

Earth, but also how that community is going to be

Gigi Johnson:

interacting among themselves. And that's where the technology

Gigi Johnson:

that the metaverse is bringing can be very applied to actually

Gigi Johnson:

make a future a better place, on Earth a better place, thanks to

Gigi Johnson:

those learnings, that we are going to learn by interacting

Gigi Johnson:

and learning from a digital twin.

Gigi Johnson:

come together as this sort of intersection of sort of built

Gigi Johnson:

spaces and new environments?

Alfredo Munoz:

So it comes from luck, as they say, in India,

Alfredo Munoz:

destiny, and it comes from a lot of passion from my side, since

Alfredo Munoz:

I'm a child on design and space. So when I was in high school,

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and I was debating between studying astrophysics or

Alfredo Munoz:

studying architecture, since I was a kid, I wanted to go in the

Alfredo Munoz:

field of architecture. But then, when I started studying math and

Alfredo Munoz:

physics, I was very passionate about space. So I was having a

Alfredo Munoz:

debate, I decided to continue the path of architecture. But I

Alfredo Munoz:

was always very interested on educating myself a lot about the

Alfredo Munoz:

field related to space, travel, the space exploration, physics,

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So in 2019, I was very lucky that there is an organization

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etc.

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called Friends of Europe, that is connected to the European

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Union. And every year, they choose 40 People below 40 years

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old, that they consider relevant in their fields. So it's a

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highly diverse group, from people in politics, arts,

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science, and I was the lucky guy that I'm the only architect in

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the group. But the opportunity also in that group is that they

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once you are part of the group, we meet three times a year in

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Europe, and then we meet with all the other alumni from that

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group, even if they're older than 40. So it allows for a

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powerful debates of ideas about how we can create a solution for

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Europe to become a better place and for the world to become a

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better place. So in 2019, I was in London, with [Dr.] Guillem

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Anglada[-Escude]; he's the scientist that headed the

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discovery of Proxima B, which is the closest exoplanet from

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Earth. And then we were [speaking in] the Spanish as

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well. So we were talking and he was telling me his biggest

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passion, where he was a good was architecture. And then I was

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telling him that my biggest passion was astrophysics. So we

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were debating and we were talking "Why don't we come up

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with a group of scientists to find self-sufficient settlements

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off world?" And that is something that connected very

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well with the work that we were doing in in my architectural

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practice because we have been focusing since I started ABIBOO

Alfredo Munoz:

Studio in 2010 in self-sufficient larger scale

Alfredo Munoz:

settlements, especially in emerging countries. We have

Alfredo Munoz:

designed three entire series in India, a lot of a proposals that

Alfredo Munoz:

require self-sufficiency. So obviously, the interest of

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sustainability, and self-sufficiency was now coming

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together in my personal interest about space. And there was a

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fantastic match because Guillem was telling me he was hugely

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passionate about architecture, and vice versa. So we started

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putting together the team. And we started again to visualize

Alfredo Munoz:

how we could find those solutions for self sufficiency

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off-world.

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We can with the moon as a first step, but the advantage and

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disadvantage of the moon is that is very close from Earth. So you

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don't need to rely on self sufficiency because you can have

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things by come forth from Earth to the moon very easily. The

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challenge that we have with Mars is that due to the distance, we

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only have a window of opportunity of one month, every

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two years to send things back and forth, which means that in

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order to create a permanent settlement on Mars, you need to

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do it with local resources. You cannot rely on materials from

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Earth. And that completely changes the question, right? The

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moment you start to think that you need to create a permanent

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settlement for people not only to survive, but to thrive in a

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place where there is nothing but there are actual resources like

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minerals and water that are critical to create a long-term

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settlement.

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That's when a lot of interesting ideas are starting to come into

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place. And again, we released the batch of designs, and then

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we were envisioning how we can communicate all of that in an

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immersive manner on how we can bring some of the other

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technologies that we were bringing in the architectural

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team, again, like virtual reality and experience with

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digital art and blockchain and NFTs. And some of the things

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that are now very connected to the metaverse, which is mainly

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coming from the gaming background, our background was

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more about finding a solution for solving problems of

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connected to climate change and social inequality, and using

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Mars as an excuse to do so. And while doing that, we think that

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we have found very appealing ways to actually live on Mars.

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And Elon Musk and some of the other companies that are

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actually exploring very hard into the transportation side of

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the space exploration are going to take us to Mars. But we think

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so far, we have been the teams that have been focusing more

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into how are we actually going to live there. Once we get

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there. Thanks to hopefully SpaceX in the next couple of

Alfredo Munoz:

years, that technology will be ready to start considering going

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to Mars. But then how is the environment that is going to be

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there? Nobody so far has been focusing with the level of

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intensity and multidisciplinary approach that we have. And

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within that, that's quite exciting. And again, that

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simulation on a digital twin is the first step to actually test

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things out and experience how it will be so we can iterate and

Alfredo Munoz:

make improvements and check it out.

Gigi Johnson:

So when you create a new city somewhere, you're

Gigi Johnson:

making assumptions on sort of socio-politics, who is there,

Gigi Johnson:

how they interrelate, and what human services are there, and

Gigi Johnson:

who makes money off the Human Services, what the kind of the

Gigi Johnson:

ecology economy is, but also what the ecology economy is with

Gigi Johnson:

that place and the rest of the world. So are you assuming then

Gigi Johnson:

in the design for Mars, that, that the external ecology is

Gigi Johnson:

really one of mining and extraction? Is one of . . .

Gigi Johnson:

scientific research? I hesitate to say this, military outpost?

Gigi Johnson:

You know, is it assuming that that external relations, or an

Gigi Johnson:

economics of maybe tourism? Or what's the assumptions on what

Gigi Johnson:

you're building? And then . . . what is . . . I mean, I tend to

Gigi Johnson:

I'm a long time sci fi nut, and I always sit around with my

Gigi Johnson:

husband going, "Okay, now the economics of . . . how does this

Gigi Johnson:

person get paid? And then where does the food come from? And who

Gigi Johnson:

pays for the food and who's doing the, you know, who's

Gigi Johnson:

cooking? Who's . . .? So what are the assumptions you're

Gigi Johnson:

making? Is it more of a socialistic model, free market

Gigi Johnson:

model? And then what's the economics of this -- what --

Gigi Johnson:

30,000 person outpost?

Gigi Johnson:

Fantastic questions. The truth is that in architecture, we are

Gigi Johnson:

used to listen to the society and to understand what they need

Gigi Johnson:

in that particular location. So when we go to a create a city in

Gigi Johnson:

Philippines. Or we go and create the city or in India, we

Gigi Johnson:

talk to the politicians, we talk to the communities, we

Gigi Johnson:

understand what . . . what are intrinsic to their culture, and

Gigi Johnson:

then we try to create space around it. The challenge on Mars

Gigi Johnson:

is that we don't have Martians yet.

Gigi Johnson:

So how are you figuring out future Martians, what they're

Gigi Johnson:

going to need, want et cetera?

Alfredo Munoz:

So that's an interesting point, because the

Alfredo Munoz:

future Martians first will need to adapt to the environment. One

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thing that we know is that here on Earth is very easy for us to

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change the environment around us to accommodate it to our

Alfredo Munoz:

lifestyle, and that will not be possible on Mars. So the level

Alfredo Munoz:

of a extreme environments that we have over there is going to

Alfredo Munoz:

force us to adapt much more to what is around it. So science,

Alfredo Munoz:

there are plays even more critical role than we have here.

Alfredo Munoz:

And that's why working with so many different types of

Alfredo Munoz:

scientists to understand what are the conditions.

Alfredo Munoz:

But at the same time, that connects to your question about

Alfredo Munoz:

politics and economy. How is it going to be over there? The

Alfredo Munoz:

truth is, or we don't know. And that's where the digital twin

Alfredo Munoz:

comes in very handy, because we can do A/B testing. We can

Alfredo Munoz:

create communities that are working under certain political

Alfredo Munoz:

and economical models. For example, let's say libertarian

Alfredo Munoz:

in the way that we ambition here in the US, and other economy and

Alfredo Munoz:

political scenario can be more socialistic, more like north of

Alfredo Munoz:

Europe. And then we can see what works and what does not work,

Alfredo Munoz:

because we have the same physical conditions. So the

Alfredo Munoz:

communities, even the same type of communities, will be able to

Alfredo Munoz:

live in city states in the digital twins, and learn what

Alfredo Munoz:

can go good, what can go wrong, and detach from the emotions

Alfredo Munoz:

that we have here on Earth, with a lot of the ideas about

Alfredo Munoz:

politics and economy, and just consider it almost like a

Alfredo Munoz:

research opportunity. Right? And that's something that the

Alfredo Munoz:

community itself will be able to determine a what is working,

Alfredo Munoz:

what is not working. And again, the beautiful part of science is

Alfredo Munoz:

that [thesis] data. We analyze the data we see in that digital

Alfredo Munoz:

environment, what is the city state that is doing good in

Alfredo Munoz:

certain ways, and what the city state is doing good in certain

Alfredo Munoz:

other ways to whether we might be able to find answers that we

Alfredo Munoz:

might not have been able to realize here on Earth, because

Alfredo Munoz:

the conditions are not the same, the culture is not the same,

Alfredo Munoz:

it's completely different the culture in the US and the

Alfredo Munoz:

culture in Sweden.

Alfredo Munoz:

So it's not possible to compare apples with apples, but in the

Alfredo Munoz:

digital twin, the same amount of crowd are going to be having the

Alfredo Munoz:

opportunity to experience both as scenarios. And again, that's

Alfredo Munoz:

where we think that the cities and the culture will grow

Alfredo Munoz:

organically. And that will connect to how we were talking

Alfredo Munoz:

before that architects listen to their communities and create the

Alfredo Munoz:

space around that culture. But because we don't have a cultural

Alfredo Munoz:

Mars yet, we are creating the canvas, an initial canvas for a

Alfredo Munoz:

community to start understanding those challenges and those

Alfredo Munoz:

difficulties that we will have, because of being in a harsh

Alfredo Munoz:

environment like Mars, where we will need to be extremely

Alfredo Munoz:

efficient with resources, where the economy is going to mainly

Alfredo Munoz:

be connected to energy, because you cannot waste energy, you

Alfredo Munoz:

cannot waste the space because you don't have that luxury that

Alfredo Munoz:

we have here on Earth -- as I was saying before -- of actually

Alfredo Munoz:

changing our surroundings to adapt it to our lifestyle right?

Alfredo Munoz:

So that is where it will be a back and forth. And that

Alfredo Munoz:

connects a lot to the creative process, right? We cannot just

Alfredo Munoz:

go linearly, we have to go in one direction, and then it will

Alfredo Munoz:

come in the other direction. And then it will become almost like

Alfredo Munoz:

a blur of opportunities and situations that we will have to

Alfredo Munoz:

develop over time. And thanks to technology, again, the

Alfredo Munoz:

advantages are we can create it in a highly immersive

Alfredo Munoz:

environment that will be able to simulate fairly well what we

Alfredo Munoz:

need to create on Mars.

Gigi Johnson:

So here's where I kind of get bollixed up. So I

Gigi Johnson:

am -- and not bolloxed up but I'm sort of thinking through the

Gigi Johnson:

scenarios. And I'm an old player for Sim City, right? So you go

Gigi Johnson:

into Sim City and then you decide where the roads go. And

Gigi Johnson:

then ... the the non player character elements would say,

Gigi Johnson:

Ah, she put her out there, we're now going to go do this. And

Gigi Johnson:

just like I didn't anticipate this now I've got to build....

Gigi Johnson:

So there's an iterative build concept. But I'm assuming that

Gigi Johnson:

there's sort of a non player character reactive element that

Gigi Johnson:

is then doing something based on my actions. If I have a digital

Gigi Johnson:

twin, though, am I assuming that I'm going to be having some kind

Gigi Johnson:

of a machine learning driven reactive model? Am I going to be

Gigi Johnson:

assuming people are living in this space and then behaving as

Gigi Johnson:

individuals? Like you might, for people who spent way too

Gigi Johnson:

much time in Second Life, which is still around, where they were

Gigi Johnson:

then creating economies in it to sell each other stuff? I mean,

Gigi Johnson:

to me, it's, it's how do you kind of separate the the

Gigi Johnson:

gameplay aspect with what someone actually would do as a

Gigi Johnson:

real life series of decisions? Including, you know, do they

Gigi Johnson:

have kids? Are they in school? What do they do with their free

Gigi Johnson:

time? How would you actually practice that in a digital twin?

Gigi Johnson:

And then separately, I have a second question that's related

Gigi Johnson:

to it, but to me, it's more, the opportunity is I don't have a

Gigi Johnson:

physical limitation. I might have a participant limitation,

Gigi Johnson:

number of participants. But to me, this is the opportunity not

Gigi Johnson:

for A/B testing but for a Monte Carlo simulation, to be able to

Gigi Johnson:

run 200 simulations to see what what percolation has come from

Gigi Johnson:

it, what abnormal, interesting creative outputs come from it,

Gigi Johnson:

that could then be put into an ...a new design.

Alfredo Munoz:

And you mentioned a lot of powerful ideas. So let

Alfredo Munoz:

me start with some of the answers to them. So one of the

Alfredo Munoz:

ideas that we are envisioning, as I mentioned, is that we will

Alfredo Munoz:

create an initial canvas, but the content will have to be

Alfredo Munoz:

crowned by the community, right? And that is where it starts to

Alfredo Munoz:

be an open opportunity for the community to create solutions

Alfredo Munoz:

that they might see fit best of the challenges that the

Alfredo Munoz:

simulation is going to propose because again, the simulation is

Alfredo Munoz:

going to put into context the lack of resources, the distance

Alfredo Munoz:

from Earth, the need to create entire supply chains, because

Alfredo Munoz:

the materials have to be created locally on Mars. Which connects

Alfredo Munoz:

to another of your questions the economy.

Alfredo Munoz:

Then we are envisioning the local currency, we are calling

Alfredo Munoz:

it the Power Unit, which is again connected to energy. It's

Alfredo Munoz:

a linearly directed to the energy efficiency. And it is

Alfredo Munoz:

divided by the carbon footprint. So the economy or the Power

Alfredo Munoz:

Unit, the currency, you have the need of being very efficient

Alfredo Munoz:

with energy. But at the same time, if you pollute, and you

Alfredo Munoz:

create a carbon footprint, that currency is going to be

Alfredo Munoz:

devaluated.

Alfredo Munoz:

So for example, here on Earth, we have gas. It's very efficient

Alfredo Munoz:

-- or oil -- is very efficient, but it leaves a lot of carbon

Alfredo Munoz:

footprint, right? So we're working with concepts that by

Alfredo Munoz:

taking them into Mars, suddenly, you'll start to relate to things

Alfredo Munoz:

that happen on Earth.

Alfredo Munoz:

Let's give you an example. On Mars, you will need to buy a

Alfredo Munoz:

bottle of water ....or you need, let's say that you need to buy a

Alfredo Munoz:

bottle of water and then you pay two Power Units. But suddenly,

Alfredo Munoz:

you're hungry and you decide that you want to buy a fancy

Alfredo Munoz:

beef burger. But the truth is that a diet on Mars is going to

Alfredo Munoz:

be very different because we realize not only on Mars, but

Alfredo Munoz:

here on Earth by working with the live super systems team that

Gigi Johnson:

In the core economics, then, you're building

Gigi Johnson:

eating meat is not very efficient. The amount of energy

Gigi Johnson:

that the animals require on the amount of space that animals

Gigi Johnson:

require is substantially higher than what the amount of energy

Gigi Johnson:

that humans get by eating other substances like vegetables etc

Gigi Johnson:

right? So, suddenly when you go on to eat a beef burger, you

Gigi Johnson:

will have to pay 2000 Power Units. Just giving you samples.

Gigi Johnson:

Suddenly you start to realize like okay, why is this so

Gigi Johnson:

expensive? And then you will start to understand in the

Gigi Johnson:

digital environment that on Mars we are able to generate no

Gigi Johnson:

[farming spaces require for Martians in 1000 square foot.

Gigi Johnson:

in payments for the externalities that are then

Gigi Johnson:

But here on earth we are using 60,000 square foot per person in

Gigi Johnson:

farming and livestock. That is because we are using

Gigi Johnson:

technologies that are not a up to the latest technology. So for

Gigi Johnson:

example on Mars, we are using aquaponics and hydroponics and

Gigi Johnson:

we are eliminating meat as the opportunities for the diet. So

Gigi Johnson:

we are including insects; we are including engineered meet. So

Gigi Johnson:

pushed off on to other parties here on Earth. So you're

Gigi Johnson:

the changes in the lifestyle on Mars are automatically going to

Gigi Johnson:

give us insights in the digital environment and that we will

Gigi Johnson:

take a community that is interacting with a digital

Gigi Johnson:

environment to learn things that we can do here on on Earth in

Gigi Johnson:

our day-to-day lives. I don't know, if I answered some of your

Gigi Johnson:

questions . . .

Gigi Johnson:

actually designing, or at least in the initial contemplation

Gigi Johnson:

with how you're setting up the digital twin systems that you're

Gigi Johnson:

having, you're trying to have a full cycle price in all of the

Gigi Johnson:

lifecycle elements of all products, with limited

Gigi Johnson:

resources, not unlimited resources.

Alfredo Munoz:

Totally. Because the truth is that the Mars has

Alfredo Munoz:

limited resources, say we cannot indeed . . . .many people ask

Alfredo Munoz:

me, Well, can we consider Mars has a Plan B? The truth is that

Alfredo Munoz:

we cannot, based on the analysis that we have, as of now, the

Alfredo Munoz:

entire planet may be able to accommodate a maximum of 3

Alfredo Munoz:

million people. And that's already very aggressive. So Mars

Alfredo Munoz:

is just going to be a destination for very few people.

Alfredo Munoz:

So we have to take care of Earth.

Alfredo Munoz:

Again, remember what I was telling you. We want to go to

Alfredo Munoz:

Mars to learn things that we can do here different, because by

Alfredo Munoz:

asking the question in a different manner, we will be

Alfredo Munoz:

getting answers that are different and therefore might

Alfredo Munoz:

lead to innovation, right? So the resources are extremely

Alfredo Munoz:

limited on Mars. And that simulation has to incorporate

Alfredo Munoz:

that same with the economy. But again, the economy there is

Alfredo Munoz:

going to be mainly connected with the energy. And if you look

Alfredo Munoz:

at on Earth, and you go down to the fundamentals, the economy is

Alfredo Munoz:

also based on energy. How much energy does it cost to generate

Alfredo Munoz:

things right? The whole supply chain is also about energy . . .

Gigi Johnson:

And increasingly water as well, right? So your

Gigi Johnson:

water is . . . I mean, some parts of the United States and

Gigi Johnson:

other countries don't think too much about it and other parts,

Gigi Johnson:

think about it tremendously. And a lot of trade has to do with

Gigi Johnson:

actually shipping water in the form of lumber and other . . .

Gigi Johnson:

.and foodstuffs.

Gigi Johnson:

So what is the assumption in terms of trade for this not

Gigi Johnson:

completely [100] percent isolated environment? Is it that

Gigi Johnson:

it's anticipated that it will be assigned kind of an extractive

Gigi Johnson:

minerals, trade, knowledge industries trade? What will be

Gigi Johnson:

the. . . you've talked about a currency within the ecosystem?

Gigi Johnson:

Who owns this? Is this a ESOP? Is this a you know, a REIT? Is

Gigi Johnson:

this a government-owned facility? Are you anticipating

Gigi Johnson:

doing models on each. . . and .... so ... what's the economics

Gigi Johnson:

of the . . . the sort of macro entity?

Alfredo Munoz:

So the digital twin for . . . for now is under

Alfredo Munoz:

development, but we are envisioning to be in the

Alfredo Munoz:

blockchain. So again, anyone that will be interested in being

Alfredo Munoz:

involved can participate. And indeed we are already having the

Alfredo Munoz:

opportunity for people that are familiar with Blockchain to be

Alfredo Munoz:

part of the community, right? With owning different assets,

Alfredo Munoz:

digital assets inside the digital twin, that are going to

Alfredo Munoz:

simulate how we will have Martians owning assets in the

Alfredo Munoz:

actual Mars.

Alfredo Munoz:

Regarding with trade, we have obviously, they need to create a

Alfredo Munoz:

normal entire chain of manufacturing on Mars. We will

Alfredo Munoz:

have to do mining; we will have to manufacture. Remember again

Alfredo Munoz:

that I was explaining that for a self-sufficient economy to

Alfredo Munoz:

actually operate, we need to do everything with local resources.

Alfredo Munoz:

So the advantage we have on Mars is that we have a lot of water,

Alfredo Munoz:

I mean, we have a lot of water considering that is a very harsh

Alfredo Munoz:

environment. So with water and co2, we can obtain carbon, which

Alfredo Munoz:

is critical for the elements of life and medicines etc. Then we

Alfredo Munoz:

have iron and then we can obtain steel, which can be a critical

Alfredo Munoz:

aspect again for construction. So Mars offers the minerals that

Alfredo Munoz:

are . . . and the water that are essential to create an entire

Alfredo Munoz:

supply chain strategy.

Alfredo Munoz:

So it has to be done locally. We cannot rely on using local

Alfredo Munoz:

resources from Earth to send them from Mars -- only the very

Alfredo Munoz:

basics at the very beginning. And there will be obviously

Alfredo Munoz:

trade opportunities between Mars and Earth once the entire

Alfredo Munoz:

civilization over there is fully operational.

Alfredo Munoz:

For now in the digital environment, we are envisioning

Alfredo Munoz:

that blockchain can allow us to create the governance

Alfredo Munoz:

opportunity and ownership of assets that can be totally

Alfredo Munoz:

traceable, and very difficult to hack. And that's where we are

Alfredo Munoz:

also ambition in an economy that can communicate the physical

Alfredo Munoz:

wall here on Earth with the digital wall of the Futureverse.

Alfredo Munoz:

And that comes again thanks to the Technology connected to a

Alfredo Munoz:

blockchain because we can generate that currency that we

Alfredo Munoz:

are envisioning in the Futureverse and [on] Mars. And

Alfredo Munoz:

once the model is fully operational, there will be

Alfredo Munoz:

activity that will be trade inside the ecosystem. And we

Alfredo Munoz:

will have the opportunity to convert it into fiat currency,

Alfredo Munoz:

into dollars, thanks to the relationships that are already

Alfredo Munoz:

happening in the world of crypto with stable coins that allowed

Alfredo Munoz:

to convert a crypto asset into a fiat currency like dollars

Alfredo Munoz:

through tools and platforms that are allowing to do it.

Alfredo Munoz:

Again, what we are envisioning here for ...for Mars and for the

Alfredo Munoz:

Futureverse as an ecosystem that is allowing us to travel through

Alfredo Munoz:

space and time. We are going to Mars to the future. But the

Alfredo Munoz:

objective is to actually live in the now and learn and experience

Alfredo Munoz:

and take some of those opportunities to be in the

Alfredo Munoz:

digital environment, to apply it in the now on Earth. And that's

Alfredo Munoz:

where I think we are envisioning our ecosystem very different to

Alfredo Munoz:

the metaverse, which is about gaming and entertainment, which,

Alfredo Munoz:

yes, we definitely will include all of that as we move forward

Alfredo Munoz:

with the Futureverse. But the goal is to actually use it as a

Alfredo Munoz:

tool to make Earth a better place.

Gigi Johnson:

So how is this mindset and exploration

Gigi Johnson:

impacting your architecture business?

Alfredo Munoz:

Pretty much. So for example, one of the things

Alfredo Munoz:

that is affecting is on the solutions that we use for

Alfredo Munoz:

materials. It's very common in architecture to use concrete

Alfredo Munoz:

because it's very cheap. But once we started working with the

Alfredo Munoz:

scientists, we realized that these highly [number], not very

Alfredo Munoz:

environmentally friendly, we are working with the solutions that

Alfredo Munoz:

we are creating on Mars are even more focused on self-sufficiency

Alfredo Munoz:

than the work we were doing before.

Alfredo Munoz:

So, for example, now, when we create cities and development,

Alfredo Munoz:

we are valuing much more the infrastructure. So for example,

Alfredo Munoz:

here, it's typical on Earth, that we create the residential

Alfredo Munoz:

areas and the manufacturing areas, or the low-impact

Alfredo Munoz:

manufacturing areas close to each other. And then we take all

Alfredo Munoz:

the infrastructure, all the sewer, all the electricity, out

Alfredo Munoz:

of our areas where we usually interact. But the truth is that

Alfredo Munoz:

when we were thinking about this on Mars, we realized that

Alfredo Munoz:

they're almost like the churches of Mars, right? They are the

Alfredo Munoz:

ones that give us that spiritual wellbeing. Because thanks to

Alfredo Munoz:

those infrastructures, thanks to the banks that are going to be

Alfredo Munoz:

converting co2 into oxygen tanks to the manufacturing elements

Alfredo Munoz:

that are transforming the water into drinkable water, thanks to

Alfredo Munoz:

the sewer systems that are actually recycling in a model

Alfredo Munoz:

that is almost zero waste -- is what is allowing us to be alive

Alfredo Munoz:

on Mars, right? So when we are designing townships here, now,

Alfredo Munoz:

we start to realize that things that we were given for granted,

Alfredo Munoz:

because of years and years of creating urban planning and

Alfredo Munoz:

architecture, where the infrastructure is left on the

Alfredo Munoz:

side, suddenly, it can become an important part of the experience

Alfredo Munoz:

as well. And we are again, thinking a lot about the how

Alfredo Munoz:

lifestyle can affect our, our environment, and how carbon

Alfredo Munoz:

footprint has a critical role in the long term. And by analyzing

Alfredo Munoz:

the economics that we were talking before on Mars, we are

Alfredo Munoz:

realizing that they . . . okay your ... your architecture,

Alfredo Munoz:

sometimes we have to meet a lot of need. It's not only about

Alfredo Munoz:

how you would like to get things done, but how politicians or how

Alfredo Munoz:

developers have to implement their vision with the resources

Alfredo Munoz:

that they have. Right? So the opportunity we have with Mars is

Alfredo Munoz:

that we can actually dream with no limitations on . . . .okay,

Alfredo Munoz:

we need to create something that is highly sustainable, but is

Alfredo Munoz:

going to be more expensive in the short term, but in 20 years,

Alfredo Munoz:

it's going to pay off. That's conversations that we normally

Alfredo Munoz:

have on earth, that sometimes you have to find compromises,

Alfredo Munoz:

but when we are looking into a more optimistic or a utopical

Alfredo Munoz:

scenario, we are learning and we are trying to communicate that

Alfredo Munoz:

when developing projects here on Earth as well.

Gigi Johnson:

So if somebody, as an individual or an

Gigi Johnson:

organization, listens to this and says, "Oh my gosh, I would

Gigi Johnson:

like to be involved." How would they become involved? What type

Gigi Johnson:

of involvement do you need now? And then what type of . . . what

Gigi Johnson:

type of resources and opportunities are there for

Gigi Johnson:

people who want to get involved in the next few years?

Alfredo Munoz:

So there are two options. One of them is

Alfredo Munoz:

connected to the digital twin on the simulation onn Mars. We are

Alfredo Munoz:

looking to expand the community, we are looking for partnerships

Alfredo Munoz:

about outreach. Again, for this community to actually be useful

Alfredo Munoz:

to, to the Earth, we need to have a community, right?

Alfredo Munoz:

Otherwise, if it's just a few 1000 people, we will not be able

Alfredo Munoz:

to simulate a lot of the opportunities that we will have

Alfredo Munoz:

in the future on Mars. So growing the community and

Alfredo Munoz:

creating partnerships, that they provide a higher outreach on how

Alfredo Munoz:

to grow that community is something that we will always be

Alfredo Munoz:

looking forward. The other side is on the architectural front.

Alfredo Munoz:

Again, in ABIBOO Studio, we do a lot of projects, from

Alfredo Munoz:

residential to large settlements to temporary structures. So

Alfredo Munoz:

obviously, anyone that is interested into looking for

Alfredo Munoz:

innovation in a more traditional physical environment, we will be

Alfredo Munoz:

happy to help as well.

Gigi Johnson:

Could it . . . . could whole groups come to the

Gigi Johnson:

table? Could a group of high schools come in and have high

Gigi Johnson:

schoolers do programs around and explorations, you know, in this

Gigi Johnson:

space? Could you know groups of educators, groups of physical

Gigi Johnson:

scientists come in as a group and engage with this?

Alfredo Munoz:

Totally. The vision of the Futureverse is to

Alfredo Munoz:

combine the communities that sometimes they don't interact

Alfredo Munoz:

among themselves. So education is very important. Science,

Alfredo Munoz:

artists, gamers, investors, people that are very involved

Alfredo Munoz:

with the latest technologies in crypto blockchain -- all of

Alfredo Munoz:

those communities sometimes operate in silos or very focused

Alfredo Munoz:

into their interest. But what we are doing here is to merge them

Alfredo Munoz:

together into a platform or into an environment that we think

Alfredo Munoz:

will allow to cross pollinate. And that's one of the core ideas

Alfredo Munoz:

and core visions that we have. I mean, from my personal

Alfredo Munoz:

experience, cross pollination is the most important tool that we

Alfredo Munoz:

have as innovators, right? So the moment that we start merging

Alfredo Munoz:

communities that have different interests, different expertise,

Alfredo Munoz:

different backgrounds, new interesting ideas start to come

Alfredo Munoz:

up. So, for sure, educators, again, scientists, artists,

Alfredo Munoz:

investors, people that are in the gaming or in the

Alfredo Munoz:

entertainment field, the communicators, influencers in

Alfredo Munoz:

YouTube or like any other channel, where like, like, like

Alfredo Munoz:

you will have a key role into . . . in their insights and their

Alfredo Munoz:

ideas about how to create a new society. Again, all of these --

Alfredo Munoz:

you are using Mara as an excuse. And yes, we definitely see that

Alfredo Munoz:

all of the learning that we're putting together will actually

Alfredo Munoz:

be implemented on Mars -- we are very optimistic. But the core

Alfredo Munoz:

here is, how can we all create a new society? If we have to do it

Alfredo Munoz:

right this time. We have done a lot of things, right? We have

Alfredo Munoz:

done some mistakes. What about if now, we start from ground up.

Alfredo Munoz:

And with the knowledge that we have of centuries and centuries

Alfredo Munoz:

as a community, we try to create everything from scratch for

Alfredo Munoz:

entire society, that they not only tries to overcome some of

Alfredo Munoz:

the social inequalities that we are seeing that is growing in

Alfredo Munoz:

today's world, but also it connected to climate change and

Alfredo Munoz:

to growth and to thriving as an individual, right? And working

Alfredo Munoz:

together. Again, I was talking before Mars will not be able to,

Alfredo Munoz:

we will not survive on Mars if we don't work together. So we

Alfredo Munoz:

will need to transcend who we are as individuals in order to

Alfredo Munoz:

create a new society on Mars. And the question is, maybe

Alfredo Munoz:

that's not a bad place to come if we want to evolve our society

Alfredo Munoz:

on Earth. So anyone that is optimistic, optimistic about the

Alfredo Munoz:

future, that wants to bring their ideas and expertise and

Alfredo Munoz:

passion, about things that could be better in our society can

Alfredo Munoz:

definitely jump into providing those ideas and insights on how

Alfredo Munoz:

to create a new society. And again, Mars is a great place to

Alfredo Munoz:

test things out.

Gigi Johnson:

Wow, what an adventure.

Alfredo Munoz:

In this environment. I mean, once . . .

Gigi Johnson:

Yeah, I was gonna say that, that, that depending

Gigi Johnson:

on who you are, you probably listen to this and go, "Wow,

Gigi Johnson:

I've been trapped in COVID in my house for how long and I'm going

Gigi Johnson:

to be doing what on Mars?" or "Oh my gosh, I would love to,

Gigi Johnson:

you know, you know, this is a much better idea than going on a

Gigi Johnson:

fishing boat. Maybe I can make my fortune going to Mars!" So I

Gigi Johnson:

think you're gonna have a wide variety of people who think this

Gigi Johnson:

is an interesting exploration. And then when you actually go to

Gigi Johnson:

fund this thing, or someone goes to fund the learnings from this.

Gigi Johnson:

There's a whole another set of where people can go to

Gigi Johnson:

experience their next Adventure? Or just sort of thinking of this

Gigi Johnson:

is something you do for six months and come back? Or because

Gigi Johnson:

of gravitational issues that you'd be changed, right? So

Gigi Johnson:

you'd come back a physically changed person.

Gigi Johnson:

We could probably talk for a long time on this. We've talked

Gigi Johnson:

for a while - what have we not mentioned that you would want to

Gigi Johnson:

say before we finish up our conversation today?

Alfredo Munoz:

So I got connected maybe with what I just

Alfredo Munoz:

mentioned about cross pollination. And I had been very

Alfredo Munoz:

fortunate that I have been able to live in many countries, I

Alfredo Munoz:

lived the Middle East, I lived in India, I lived in Japan, I

Alfredo Munoz:

lived in Europe, obviously, where I'm from, I live here in

Alfredo Munoz:

the US. And that gave me great admiration for the different

Alfredo Munoz:

cultures and for respecting different opinions. And I would

Alfredo Munoz:

connect that to other fields as well. We are usually very good

Alfredo Munoz:

in some things. But by bringing other experts and other fields

Alfredo Munoz:

that might be very different to ours. From my experience over

Alfredo Munoz:

the years, it actually allows to bring powerful insights that we

Alfredo Munoz:

would not have got otherwise. So cross pollinating, bringing

Alfredo Munoz:

diversity of genders, of ideas, of cultures, with respect for

Alfredo Munoz:

others points of view. And by bringing in experts in

Alfredo Munoz:

completely different fields into the same environment and

Alfredo Munoz:

ecosystem is probably from what I have found in my personal life

Alfredo Munoz:

to be extremely insightful and enriching not only as a creator,

Alfredo Munoz:

but also as a person, right?

Alfredo Munoz:

So I would invite anyone to try to force themselves to think out

Alfredo Munoz:

of the box. I like to say that everyone should be an immigrant

Alfredo Munoz:

at least once in a culture that is very, very different to ours,

Alfredo Munoz:

because that automatically puts you in a completely new mindset,

Alfredo Munoz:

and forces you to request in a lot of the things that you think

Alfredo Munoz:

you know, and that is very relevant to creativity, right?

Alfredo Munoz:

So in that sense, I think that's very important.

Alfredo Munoz:

Secondly, I would like to add anyone that they might be very

Alfredo Munoz:

interested into bringing ideas connected to creativity, to try

Alfredo Munoz:

to surround yourself with good mentors. And I was very

Alfredo Munoz:

fortunate when I was very young, to be in the architectural field

Alfredo Munoz:

working with some of the best architects of the end of the

Alfredo Munoz:

20th century, the guy that won the equivalent of the Nobel

Alfredo Munoz:

Prize in architecture, the former head of Harvard, he is

Alfredo Munoz:

the some the biggest architectural firm in the US. So

Alfredo Munoz:

Alfredo, it's been great having your really different nexus of

Alfredo Munoz:

that allowed me to, by almost osmosis, be close to great

Alfredo Munoz:

talent, not only as a mentor, but also in the colleagues,

Alfredo Munoz:

right? And creating that environment of a creativity is

Alfredo Munoz:

so important. There is this book called The Medici effect, right

Alfredo Munoz:

about why in the Renaissance, there was so much innovation and

Alfredo Munoz:

had to do with Florence and how different fields were in the

Alfredo Munoz:

same environment. And I think Silicon Valley has been a lot

Alfredo Munoz:

about that, over the last 30 years, right? Like so many

Alfredo Munoz:

different people from different backgrounds, providing ideas on

Alfredo Munoz:

different fields. So I would, and that's what we're

Alfredo Munoz:

envisioning, with, with the futures again, creating an

Alfredo Munoz:

ecosystem where people from completely different backgrounds

Alfredo Munoz:

that might have the opportunity to either provide mentorship or

Alfredo Munoz:

learn from others and experience from more experienced people or

Alfredo Munoz:

people that are more already established in their field to

Alfredo Munoz:

create a community that is about inclusion and about ideas and

Alfredo Munoz:

all debate as well because again, we cannot build a society

Alfredo Munoz:

without debate. And being righteous is something that they

Alfredo Munoz:

won't work in order to create innovation.

Alfredo Munoz:

architecture and outer space, though very intertwined, as

Alfredo Munoz:

you're talked about on the show.

Gigi Johnson:

How can people reach out to you and what do you

Gigi Johnson:

need right now?

Alfredo Munoz:

Yeah, so basically, anyone that is

Alfredo Munoz:

interested in being involved for participating can reach out at

Alfredo Munoz:

Onteco.com or at ABIBOO.com, A-B-I-B-O-O.com. Or Onteco. And

Alfredo Munoz:

then reach out, let us know how we can be of service, how we can

Alfredo Munoz:

be of help, and you want to be involved. Please, we would love

Alfredo Munoz:

to, because again, in order to make this happen, especially

Alfredo Munoz:

visualize and to create a new society, we need a lot of minds

Alfredo Munoz:

that they want to participate with optimism, and with passion

Alfredo Munoz:

about how we can all together make the world a better place

Alfredo Munoz:

here and on Mars. But let's start with Mars so we can bring

Alfredo Munoz:

it to Earth. So Mars in the digital environment, then to

Alfredo Munoz:

Earth and back to Mars in the near future.

Gigi Johnson:

Excellent. And we'll have all this in the show

Gigi Johnson:

notes and thank you for bringing your adventure to our adventure.

Alfredo Munoz:

Thank you. Thank you so much. It has been a great

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