Creativity, Branding, Muppets, Yo Gabba Gabba, and other Career Adventures . . . with Mike Polis

Mike, I am so glad that you're on the show, you have been one of my favorite people that overlaps creative, and business and branding for a really long time. And you're part of one of my favorite memories. And that was, I think it was 2005 or so at DragonCon when you were with, had Mirrormask, and you were walking around and people were treating you like you were spun gold, because you were an exec from the, from the Jim Henson Company. I don't know if that's at all in your memories. But to me, that was kind of a fun and interesting piece of the puzzle is watching people, fangirl and fanboy.

You know, it's funny about that entire event was that my flight was delayed. So I got there late. And they actually had to scramble to find a new room for me to be in because the original room that was set up was I wasn't there, I didn't know I didn't show up. So they gave me like two or three rooms to go to. So which I I'm sorry, they gave me one room, which was supposed to be the correct room to go to for the reschedule. And I first the first door I opened, it was filled with vampires. The second door that I went to was filled with people from Middle Earth. And then I finally found the room that I was supposed to be in talking about the movie. So that was DragonCon. . . was definitely a memorable experience for that and more

So we'll come back around again. Can you maybe start us off Mike with the . . . because you're doing so many things right now? What is your current adventure with big air quotes around it?

So I would say it's, it's two different things. One is I'm still heavily involved in IP development, production. But really, really IP that is focused on I would say this fantasy, science fiction, space. You know, I love this, this kind of genre and I won't be doing a police procedural. That's not the you know, not necessarily in my, in my blood. And that there's always this touch of merchandising to it, there's a component to it, that that extends the experience beyond just the filmed entertainment, for example. So that's one aspect. And then another piece of what I'm doing, which is completely different. And yet tangentially related is working with hardware systems that were originally designed to go into satellites that are now being used terrestrially that are low power, small footprint, and incredibly fast. So it's in the reason I've kind of fell into those is because there's a ton of rendering that's done on the production side, which was kind of the initial foray which and going way, way back I was I was in the tech space for the very first few years of my career.

So we're going to haul back to that and go back and go back in time. Of course, I really love having people on the show that are many different facets and kind of roll between them and you definitely are one of those people who has deep dived into areas and then comes back into kind of plugging it together later so I'm gonna drag you back to young person. So when when you were a young person you grew up in New York if I remember correctly.

Yes, born and raised.

When you were a young person -- 12, 13, 14 years old in New York -- what were the things you did? Were you a tech guy? Were you taking apart small computers? Were you drawing? Were you organizing all your friends? What was kind of the the Mike of the era?

So I can I can probably peg it to when I was even younger, --maybe like seven or eight -- where my neighbor's dad was a pharmacist, Joey Malccione, who I haven't talked to talk to him since I was probably 10. But he used to come home with stacks of comic books and I would read them voraciously. Loved the artwork. Loved the storytelling. Loved . . . But it was like this magical thing that I had never really gotten involved with before. And it. It created a . . . just a love and appreciation for art, illustration, and storytelling. And, and that's what inspired me to start drawing. You know, I wanted to draw for comics. And then as I started to get even more involved in drawing, I wanted to learn how to animate . . . you know that there. So that so that was a definitely a big influence. And my older sister was extremely talented . . she still is . . . extremely talented artists. But yeah, it's funny how the things that. . . that kind of inspire you as a kid stick with you your entire life.

Or you keep wishing you went back to. You headed into that direction. But a lot of people go well, I was drawing when I was 12. Why did I not go back to drawing? So your parents were supportive of you and your sister and any other siblings and being creative?

Oh, absolutely not.

Cool with it?

No, not at all. My, my parents . . . It was funny. I. . . in high school, so eighth grade actually, I was put into a high school drawing class, art class. But it wasn't a freshman in high school drawing class. I was with all the seniors for four years, had a portfolio, applied to all these great schools, art schools, and got in. But my parents, you know, I was the first kid to go to college, to get a four-year degree in my family. When I graduated college, my dad graduated college. He went back to school to get his bachelor's degree. He's a retired general in the military. So very different path. My mom, I don't even know she completed high school. So I was first kid to go through. So when my mom heard me say something about art or something art-related, she had a coronary, thinking what happened to doctor or lawyer, you know, something that is considered a profession. So it's not that they weren't supportive. They loved the art that I was doing. In fact, I would get these photos that were kind of destroyed, half destroyed, of old relatives, and my mom would ask me to try and recreate them as illustrations. Or I do paintings or, but, you know, it just, it didn't work out. So I ended up going to getting a liberal arts degree from the State University of New York at Binghamton. Because, A, it was affordable. And B It was a top-rated State University in New York, and it wasn't an art school, unfortunately.

So you, you, your parents were happy with liberal arts, but they weren't happy with art school?

Well, because they viewed the liberal arts degree as a stepping stone to . . . because you kind of need you need the undergraduate degree in order to go . . . like I was poli sci / graphic design with a minor illustration. That's what I ended up double majoring in. Go figure, right? Go draw political cartoons. So . . . but they still saw that as a stepping stone into either getting a business degree, getting, you know, going to law school, I mean, any of those things I could have, I could have done afterwards.

So what did young Mike do?

So after graduating college, it was a boom times . . . this is 1987, here if you had a pulse, you could get a job because it was terrific. So a few friends of mine lived in Boston. So I moved to Boston, gave myself two weeks to find a job and a place to live and, and did. And it was a terrible first job. I had worked summers for the Division of Military Naval Affairs. My dad ended up being able to connect me up with a job because Albany, New York, which is where I went to high school, in actually in a suburb of Schenectady called Niskayuna. That's where the headquarters in Albany was for the Division of Military and Naval Affairs for the state. So they had civilian positions. They'd hire people on for the summer. And that helped me help me land my first job, working in bleeping out for submarines, selling or sending high, highly classified communications from one thing . . . to one place to the next. Because I had a clearance from my first job. Needless to say that . . . the first person that . . . the person had hired me introduced me to my new boss. After a week, she sat down with me and she said, "we need to find you another job." And I said, "Why? Why is that?" She said, "You are going to be bored like you would not believe if you stay here. You need to go find something else. And I'm going to help you. And she was terri. . . Darlene Quarles. She was phenomenal. So I ended up working in tech at a company called. . . a tiny little company on the 128 belt, which was considered America's technology highway back in the day. that's when Digital Equipment was around when lots of Boston-based technology companies were extremely prominent. And I ended up working for a little company that made software to replace typesetting machines. So these $100,000 typesetting machines, you can now run on this new cool thing called the personal computer.

Now we're dating ourselves, this is a terrible conversation, Mike.

I know. Sorry.

No, it's all good.

And it runs software too!

So where are you drawing them? I mean, where are you then going home and drawing or hanging out with people who were art people, or you are taking your creative self and working with this new personal computer?

So . . it was it was hard time for me, I have to say, because I was still drawing, but on the side. I had missed the window of being able to have a regimented experience where, if you're going to RISD [Rhode Island School of Design], you are drawing every day. You are not only drawing every day, but you're getting critiqued, you are getting feedback information on how to do storytelling. Now, I ended up taking a bunch of classes, undergrad and and learned a few things. And a great anatomy class, took some great design and composition classes . . .

Drawing anatomy, not looks like . . . biological anatomy or not other stuff. Yeah.

But it just wasn't the same, you know, as as anything that I would have gotten. So it was the equivalent of falling behind in a race that I knew I couldn't end up catching up to. But I still voraciously read a lot of, you know, books or comics or graphic novels, whatever, that . . . So storytelling, and, and characters and character development were still incredibly important. And I always felt that I wanted to get into entertainment at some point. But it just, had, there was no path, really in Boston. But ironically, this first job, I got this because I was doing graphic design for the newspaper in college, I was typesetting initially, and doing page layout. And because they were doing this typesetting software, I ended up getting the job. So I knew how to typeset. And typesetting, for those of you who have no idea what I'm talking about is, you know, when you were laying out a newspaper, there was. . . there wasn't this thing called WYSIWYG, which is what you see is what you get, where you could see on screen,what would appear on paper. You actually had to write code to determine what the line space point size, etc.

Before that, you're actually doing this stuff. You're actually putting type down. This is a digital version of that. And this is about the time I was actually doing a newspaper at UCLA as a . . . as a grad student, and also having to learn typesetting. So I'm totally grokking where you are with that right now as to as to the new software that lets you do this, but then people didn't know how to do that. And you were have to actually, yeah. It wasn't as simple as I'm now putting a Header 1 on whatever the text was. Or you're doing it but you're doing it in code. So how did this progress to the next you? Had , , , what you were then looking at? What do I do with my life? And I'm sitting here working with personal computers and typesetting stuff.

Yeah, well, the beauty is I did learn how to rip apart a PC and put it back together. I did . . . I learned a lot about, you know, motherboards and have . . . you know, buses and it was it was a. . . it was really actually enjoyable. I found that interfered in me that enjoyed technology. But I also saw that most technology at that stage was driven by engineers, not by marketers. Steve Jobs hadn't quite made it yet, you know, the Mac was being introduced at the time. It wasn't a mainstay. You know, the Apple 2E was cool, but it was still not a thing. So, I decided to go back to grad school. Because I thought going broader would be better, because I was in a very narrow kind of niche business. So I went back to Northeastern University -- they have an MBA Co-Op program -- because I also wanted to try a few other things outside of where I was, and did that

But not art school? You didn't go to art school for grad school?

No, I didn't. You know, this goes back to the more business-minded . . The struggle within me has always been arts and creative versus the practicality of needing to eat, shelter, food, you know. Not the artists cannot make a living, they can make a tremendous living. But there's a lot of, I think, fear built into me by buying my folks that hey, you know, don't you know, don't go down that path. There's, there's challenges then. So . .

So from MBA, how did you end up at, I think, Kraft, what was the next journey? Step? What? Because that seems like a great brand layer to put onto what then became a great lens for you. But how did you make that choice?

So when I was when I was at, Northeastern, they have a couple of different. So there's a couple different assignments that you go on, essentially. I truly and highly recommend a co op education because you go to school, and then you work. And it's not like your work and take classes, but they assigned you for six months to go work for a company. And because they have such great relationships with a number of different companies. It's not like you're gonna make some coffee Kid, come back, and we'll talk to you later. Like we were doing spreadsheets specifically for the trying to figure out how certain promotional programs were working in different parts of the country. So that aside, so I did, I did something I worked for stride right at one point. And that was terrible. I learned a lot about feet. I learned that the West Coast has, on average smaller feet than the East Coast, the East Coast feeder, I didn't know that a lot of the Asian immigration into the West Coast is smaller feet versus Eastern Europe, or Europeans coming in from the east coast. It's fascinating stuff. But it wasn't for me. So I ended up working at General Foods. And this guy, Bill Shaw, who ran the marketing department, one of the things that he did on the interview, which I thought was fascinating was it's typical questions you get and but then he he tore out three or four different ads, just put them on the table. And they just asked your opinion on each of them. What worked what didn't? And why. So going back to my art background, understanding graphic design, understanding layout. They weren't necessarily illustrated there. Photographic, but it contributed significantly to my getting the job because I think that you know, that certainly played a role and that it was one of the things that he commented on. I think after I'd been hired that you thought what I had to say about it, I couldn't remember right now what I said then but that that was a big help.

It's another inch . . . I'm always a big fan of the layers that wrap back around and how they make you different than everyone coming in the door. And coming out of a program is that everyone actually comes out looking and smelling the same. So coming in with the different layers sometimes actually help you find that next thing coming especially, out of grad school. But oh look an MBA what makes you unique, so you then ended up working on the food side of life? Yeah, the computer side of life to the food side of life.

Yeah, it was Maxwell House coffee, then I worked in . . . I started there, started at Maxwell House, that's when I was doing the co op. Then I ended up working at, they call the corporate, but essentially, it was a group designed to take all these disparate groups, all these different siloed divisions. So we had, we had Post Cereals, we'd have Jello, we'd have, you know, you name it, Entenmann's, one of my favorites. But, so all of these would work . . . our job is to get them to work together around specific events to drive additional revenue. And what was, you know, fascinating, I think that's where I really learned about large company corporate politics, and how things work, and how what's best for the company sometimes isn't necessarily reflected in how companies behave. In that you always hear about the company isn't necessarily behaving in the best interest of the employee, but sometimes the company itself isn't acting the way it should, for the best interests of the of the greater good. So you'd have you know, a tiny little division, that would be a part of a event that would see incremental increase in their revenue of 20-30%. And the big guys like coffee, guys, did 2-3%. So they're saying, why are we doing this, it's not, I don't want to do this anymore. So we have to try and figure out how to wrangle everybody to get them to participate. We had . . . we had a few successful campaigns there. But what I . . . what I learned in the traditional consumer packaged goods business was. . . was extremely helpful in terms of discipline. And understanding that small share points make a huge difference in your bottom line, understanding how the trade works, understanding consumer behavior. But I also looked at the track that I was on, you know, 10 years before you start getting directly involved with commercials and advertising, and then you're trying to make cheese look sexy. So that people will embrace it . . .

Cheese can be sexy. Yeah. Depends on what you do with the chee. . . , no. So and I know people who've spent their whole careers at the major consumer packaged goods companies and have been happy as whatever. I'm not sure I was gonna say happy as clams. I'm not sure how happy clams are. But so you were you were looking for the next clam? I mean, you're looking for the next thing to do. How did you end up making the next shift?

So I, there was this new thing called home entertainment that had come on board turned into a multibillion dollar industry. And what a lot of entertainment companies are doing is they were leveraging relationships with consumer packaged goods companies to get the word out, or to create promotional programs. So I'm doing this deal with I want to say it was Paramount. It's Forrest Gump and a few other movies. And this woman Karen Star, who I am forever indebted to. She was in . . . she was in I guess, promotions agent working for the studios. She and I had a connection. We . . . we put together a program. And then she called me a few weeks later it was you know, successful. She . . . she called me a few weeks later. She says you know, there's this job at Universal Studios that you would be perfect for. And I said, Yeah, I have no interest in moving to California. Because I don't know anybody out there. And yeah, it's a long way away. And it's in you know, it's it's with the home entertainment division. I don't really know enough about what that is and how big of a business it is. So you said well, you know, just try it out. What harm can it'll fly you out? That's it. Okay. I'll you know, I'll go. So stupid me. I decide, well, I don't really think this is going to pan out for anything. So I'm just going to do it in a day. So I flew on a Sunday to California, interviewed Monday, and then flew back that night Monday and was back at work on Tuesday.

Wow.

Yeah. Dumb.

But I've never been to California before, I'm just gonna fly overnight.

Well, what's funny is so the first guy I meet with first woman I met with was from Brooklyn. The second was was from the Bronx, the third was from New Jersey. And the fourth was from San Diego, the outlier. So they made me feel really, at home and comfortable. And, and there was a trend going on in entertainment because they did not have discipline. These were businesses that were growing rapidly. By the time I left Universal, I was managing a business that was over well over $700 million. And if you add it in the rental portion of the business, for universal, we were like $1.2 billion, just this division. It was a cash cow is taking existing assets and repurposing them and selling them for increasing convenience, right, you didn't have to wait till the movie came into the theater once again. Or you could go to Blockbuster, a thing of the past, and rent it. So I came back, I got a call. They offered me a job. And before you know what I was, this is probably what September, October and I was on a plane to move New Year's Eve of 1994 and started January 2, '95.

Now were you a married person at this time?

I was not -- I was engaged. So I basically that following March is when I was getting married. So I left I did an executive entrance and exit for my wedding. Because I just flew back in March. I had no idea what was happening or you know, I had some idea, but this is well before FaceTime, video and being a part of any real decision making with a lot of communication. But yeah, but

You were making a decision for your fiancee to move across the country.

She was working at Price Waterhouse. So we talked about it. Yeah. So she she was like, You know what, I think I can get a transfer transferred out to the LA office. And it worked out just fine.

Because making these decisions as a couple because during this era, we moved from LA to New York and the New York to LA as we kept with our couple whipsawing back and forth between that conversation when you have dual careers. It's great that she was able to switch. But it's an interesting decision making pathway of the how is this working for the both of us, pre kids is always sort of an interesting lens where people will sometimes follow and then that becomes an interesting journey path. So you ended up out in beautiful Los Angeles in the middle of the DVD boom. And then what pulled you then to to the Jim Henson Company, or when and why.

So I've been there for, I guess, coming on five years, there was a shake up because Edgar Bronfman at Seagrams, bought into Universal, and that was a disaster. It was a complete disaster. I don't know him personally, you know, waved a couple of times. But I ended up there was a big shuffle. There are a lot of people that ended up getting moved around. So the guy that was running our division went to international and anyway, they brought in some new people. I didn't really care for them. They liked me, wanted me to stick around, so I ended up getting a call from Margaret Loesch. So, I don't know if you know Margaret Loesch at all, but Margaret, she ran Fox Kids, she was kind of the person behind Fox Kids. She ended up going to the Jim Henson Company and she was like wow, you know, love to have you here. So I went interviewed, like the people ended up accepting the job so I accept the job in November. I was still under contract with Universal and I told them I said look, I'd like to get out of this, I got you know X amount of time left, and so they finally let me out my contract. Two weeks before starting -- this is in February the following year, right November to February. Chris McGurk, who was the head of he was like, as high as you got at Universal calls me, says I hear You're planning on leaving? I said, Yeah, you know, my last day is Friday. It's like, well, don't do anything rash. I said, Chris, I quit November.

It's a little bit of a lead time, man. This is much more lead time than anybody else gives.

This is not rash. So anyway, long story short, I said, my phone number still works, if you want to call me, and I ended up. I left and started the job at Henson. And Universal pursued me afterward. Two, three months, they blew up that group again, put another guy in charge. And then, can we come to lunch? I'd like to talk to you. We're interested in bringing you back on, and we want to bring you back on board. And we have a whole thing planned. But I couldn't, I couldn't see myself doing it. Because not because I was prescient, knowing that home entertainment business would eventually collapse with the expansion of of SVODs and digital distribution. But mostly because the, well, I shouldn't say that I had a little bit of that, because. . .

About what year was this?

So this is around '99, 2000. So I would say I did see a little bit of it, because there was a huge incremental difference from VHS to DVD, right? It's, you know, rewinding your you know, all kinds of crazy stuff, you don't have to be kind anymore, and rewind . . .

And the cost structure was totally different. So you ended up with a package good with a cost of goods sold of almost nothing, and no need for for recording, tape recording time and everything else.

You're stamping.

You're stamping pieces of plastic. Right?

Yeah. And but Blu Ray was introduced. So we were kind of looking at the Blu Ray technology. And I'm looking at Blu Ray technology. And I'm saying, There is no way anybody is going to be interested in replacing their entire library. For Blu Ray, you know, it's good enough, I saw the movie I consumed it, I'm done. Because, again, part of the reason why I was people wanted me to come in to the entertainment side is because really, it's a consumer packaged good. That's what we were dealing with. It was just a different widget, as opposed to a box of cereal. It was a DVD or VHS cassette. So we're still dealing with Walmart, Kmart, Target at the time, although those places . . .

And even more so because they were bigger and bigger part of the business as it was moving from rental to purchase.

Yeah. So Henson was interesting, you know, when I when I got there, because it was still a studio, but a much, much smaller version. And there were things that I really had to get used to, like not having the support to be able to do some basic things. But you know, it was a cool. We were at Raleigh Studios right across from Paramount. And I really liked I liked the lot that we were on, there were some cool buildings

It's the old A&M Lot and the old Charlie Chaplin lot. I mean, it's that cool space that has had so much history.

Well, actually, that's where we were I started with before that so before that,

Oh, you were down you're down. I'm sure I was even thinking the Raleigh lot. The lot that is across from Paramount on Melrose. And yeah,

Yes, yes. We eventually moved to the to the A&M records old A&M record space, and that place is beautiful. I think the Henson's are incredibly good at real estate. That is, you know, that is one of the things that they're they're really, really good at. But you know, and I had contemplated and really wrestled with going back as a potential opportunity back to universal because, you know, getting those jobs at big studios and sticking with them for a long period of time. It's, you know, it's, it's not, not they're not easy to get, and they're hard to hold on to. So anyway, I ended up working at Henson. I was running their home and home entertainment division. And eventually, or subsequent years, ran their consumer products business as well. But . . .

This is about the time I met you, and I'm gonna move the conversation a bit because you've had such a great history and it to me.

Yeah, I don't mean to be . . .

Oh, no, no, no, sorry at all this one point in time we were talking and you, you walked up to your car and you showed me in the back of your car, the toys that you were building and the game. So even despite you being big corporate guy, and then small corporate guy, you're being creative guy. So you already were having these things that you were tinkering with in the background of board games and board games, right that you're in board games, and you're had some kind of a toy that turned into a game and you were being Mr. Creative and having that can you tell that story? And then tell where you got to? Because I think you you you seem to go on a journey of working with various people's brands and helping brand monetize them, but not necessarily with a big shot. Can you sort of talk about how you've balanced the creative you? And then the other people's brands you?

Sure? Yeah, I've always . . . it's funny when I've worked it, whether was Universal or Henson or any of these places, I always . . . when I was in a position where I was assigned different things, I was always assigned to tough brands to figure out how to do something with them. So when I was at Universal they were doing a television series Hercules and Xena . . .

Xena Warrior Princess . . .

Xena Warrior Princess and Hercules. Well, and Kevin Sorbo. So we did an animated series that was more anime style, but trying to figure out how to make that was a challenge it was when I was at Henson, trying to figure out what to do with labyrinth and Dark Crystal as legacy properties after the this is like a total separate podcast about just that the sale of Henson to EM TV and the buyback. And then this the meetings with Eisner and with Iger and selling the Muppets and whole fascinating story. . .

But can you talk about those because we are glad to come back and talk about some of this stuff. And part of it of course, this will live out on its own. Whether you want to tell some of the stories in a public setting or not. But you lived through really interesting times of all this.

Yeah, no, it was it was it was great. And chaos breeds opportunity. So the idea that that there were things that were being being produced, or I should say there are brands that maybe laid fallow that we need to figure out what to do with them to create more interest. You know, you think about the Muppets as a property came out in the '70s. And by the time, you know, the year 2000 rolls around, I mean, it's a long, long time. So I'd created an artificial events, you know, the 25th anniversary of the Muppets, and did all kinds of things. I mean, crazy stuff, like nine different cars that were all decked out with different characters in a NASCAR race in Chicago. So there was like the race within the race, right? Will the Piggy car be the Pepe car versus the Fozzie car?

Kinda like the marbles thing? Now do you follow the marbles races?

No, you Oh, dear me about this. You wait, you told me a little bit about this.

Maybe. . . so so. So first, I should say, for certain people, they'll go well, of course the marbles race channels on YouTube and other people go what are you talking about? So creating artificial sporting events is not . . . it's not a new thing. But there's all sorts of current incarnations of it too.

Well, you know, also put together the first live Muppet Show. So you everyone thought I was out of my mind with wanting to pull this off Martin Baker, who was the original. He was the floor manager I believe for the original Muppet Show. He was the head of production. We got all these you know all of the original performers who were who were still with us, Steve Whitmire, Dave Goelz. And then later characters like Bill Barretta, and we put on a live Muppet Show. And it was incredible as that was, I think one of the biggest highlights but you know, going back to I was I did I write the show? No, Jim Lewis did. Did I physically produce the show? Well, Martin did, but it was it was my concept idea, broader all together. So it was kind of like that executive producer space. And it was fantastic. But you going back to, you know, how did this all work? Well, Henson was a huge opportunity for me in that. I went to Brian at one point and said, You know, I'd love to do a movie about Kermit as a kid. And let's do it for home entertainment. And went to Sony, who is our distribution partner, and I'm, again, deeply indebted to Ben Feingold, who was running it at the time, who took a flyer and did a low budget feature film, called Kermit Swamp Years, starring Kermit as a 12 year old. he's telling the story of him as a kid. It's the first movie I ever did. And it gets nominated for Primetime Emmy. So for me, that was a turning point where and the best behind your back story in Hollywood you can ever imagine, which is, so I'm working on this concept of get up this whole thing together. And I find out that the writer, this guy, Jim Lewis, and another guy, Kirk Thatcher, who had nothing to do with the movie at all, but he was hired by both of these guys hired by Jim Henson and, you know, real stalwarts within the company. They went to the CEO, this guy Charlie Rivkin, at the time, they said, hey, you know what? Mike needs to be a producer, he needs to get a producer credit for this movie, because of all the things that he you know, he, it's his idea. And they came back and Charlie was like, you know, I see this paper on my desk saying, you're, you know, you're exec producer on this project. And if I didn't have that, and I was just an executive at the company, which I never would have gotten at Universal without a lot of fist fighting. That set me up to become because I got nominated. Then. I gotten more involved with Television Academy, I was two-time, two-term governor with the Television Academy that produced the Emmys and then produce another film with Neil Gaiman and Dave McKean called Mirormask, which is Neil's first movie. So going back to the all the way to the beginning. So it started the whole producing kind of path form in and honestly, that's been one of the more fun things. It's also one of the most . . . How can I say this? Politely I guess.

Difficult, really frustrating.

To say the least. It's it truly, I think gives credence to the concept of a seven year overnight sensation. But that and in and of itself, that that was my break, if you will to break into doing content.

Can you then take us to Yo Gabba Gabba? Sure.

Well, can I say one quick thing about breaking into content that . . . I you know, having had marketing in my background, and being very business oriented, I will say there was a tremendous amount of-- I don't know -- of a better term except to say prejudice against against those like myself, who were perceived not to have paid their dues in a different path, like starting out as a script reader or development person and then working your way up to an executive. You know, some felt that I jumped the wall and you know, who the hell are you? You know,

I actually have one person should have been standing in queue this whole time with the rest of us. Right. Right.

Yeah, you know, I actually had someone say to me, you know, you don't deserve to be isn't my first film. You don't deserve to be to have a credit on this. And in my defense, one of the guys who his work with said, Well, did you come up with a concept for this? Well, no. Well, did you actually sell the concept and get it funded by Sony? Well, no. Well, did you rally everyone together to actually Got it sold internally. And but these Well, no. Well, then he did all that. Why? Why is you know, why is it an issue? So, you know, a lot of it is frustration, I think on the part of people who have and also not not having an understanding of who I am as a person and in terms of understanding storytelling and character and develop and all that kind of stuff. And by the way, I can't say that I don't, I didn't know as much then as I know, now, you know, you keep growing and learning as time goes on. So anyway, back to Gaba. So Charlie Rifkin, who was the head of Henson leaves goes to a company called Wildbrain. And he and I had a really good relationship. We had a lot of debates about things. And the . . . back at Henson, he was very concerned about taking certain brands and putting them with certain characters and whether they would denigrate. And actually, it proved out that I was right, that we had tremendous success, we ended up doing MasterCard, Superbowl commercials, all kinds of crazy stuff. So we established a really good relationship and a trusting, trusted relationship. So when he went to Wildbrain, you know, you were just talking and this idea came up that they've got the show, which is they're just working on that they think is going to be big. Got a bit of a tiger by the tail. So we need some help. So I end up going over there starting out as chief marketing officer, but really trying to figure out how to launch that brand, with Nickelodeon, and everybody else. And really enjoy . . . so the first season launches. And, you know, there I am with a desk and a phone, no staff, no nobody to really work with and had to build an entire consumer products business, and had to figure out how to make that creative. From that show, which was so cutting edge and fun into something that people would . . .

Did you guys know is was gonna blow up the way it did?

We had some inklings. And so what we . . . what we initially did was we took some of the characters and did high-end vinyl toys through Kidrobot. We had a relationship with Kidrobot, the RBC company owned Kid Robot as well as Wildbrain. So we had . . . we owned them, and could. . . So we tried that, and they sold out within a heartbeat. And then we did some hoodies, sold out right away. So we knew that there was a particular thing that was happening with that show that resonated, not just with kids, but with adults as well. And it was a similar experience that I had on Bear and the Big Blue House and worked on that show.

And I loved that show.

Such a great show. But the parents . . .

Let's take it upstairs.

Oh, yeah. But my favorite anecdote about Bear is I was at FAO Schwarz back when it was next to the Apple store, the big beautiful store. Bear is doing an appearance and Bear is intimidating. You know, like, when you think about it, they've got a kid who's maybe

A big blue stuffed bear. Yeah.

Three feet tall. No, he's he's was nose was blue. But Noel [MacNeal], the character, he's got his arm up in the air, that thing is eight foot tall. But he can bring it all the way down to you know, a kid who's five or six. And there was a kid in line. And I said, Do you want to meet Bear and the line was going around the store and I'm trying to push them along. He says no. I said, I said, you know, parents wanted to kill him, you know, because they waited for like an hour. And he said, No, I don't need to meet him. And I said, why not? He said, well, because he knows me already. I said, How does he? How does he know you already? He said, Well, he sniffs me at the beginning of every show. So the beauty of that show is when the show opens, Bear's nose comes right up the camera and sniffs and says, Oh, hi, it's you. And

Very fourth wall breaking right there in your face.

Yeah. And I think Gaba has that same kind of connection with . . . with parents and kids because they, they'd watch their kids go crazy over things that were happening. And frankly, the other component was there were bits that were put up on YouTube, like don't bite your friends, or there's a party in my tummy, which were brilliant songs created that ended up delivering a huge audience. So I think those two things were were big components,

So listening to your story, and I would actually love to have you back. Because I think we can go into a lot more detail on some of this great stuff. And, and I want to continue us on the journey. But you . . . some of us, go on walk about for a while. That we're looking for the next thing and that, then we might be looking at 10 things to figure out one thing. And you seem to have a story of the, you know, Joe Smith said, Oh, come with me. And you've had people who have been handing you a question or a new opportunity, or come with me to X as a continuing journey story. Is that how you see it? Or did you look at many different things to then say, I will go with you?

Well, yeah, I leave out all of the No thanks. It doesn't quite work, you know that . . . during the dot.com bubble, there are plenty of places to go leap to that I respectfully declined. So yes, it was, you know, I can't say that. I had this sniper approach to . . . I want to do this particular job at this particular company. And that is all I'd stand for. I think that's a recipe for disaster. If, if you're that narrow, unless you are, you know, you want to be a neurosurgeon, and you're working your way toward that narrow path in in entertainment opportunity. Definitely. You have to be prepared for you know, that that whole luck is, you know, it's combination of skill, connections, luck, lots of different elements . . .

Perspiration, but luck was a big part of it. Yeah, yes.

Yes. Yes. Perspiration and perseverance. So, so yes. But it all stems from conversations, where did I surreptitiously create that idea and a third party that they should bring me on? Or were they coming with the intent of saying, We should partner and collaborate? And I'd love to have, you know, kind of how can we work together? I don't know. You know, what, you know what, which came first, but that, that that has been your right, it has been a pattern that is that is followed? followed me throughout my career.

So then, how, given that lens, how did you birth Atomic Toybox.

So it all started because back in the day, I was, I was this was going to be my creative outlet, my personal creative outlet, I had carve outs, and all these different companies for my own stuff that I was working on. Some completely nutty stuff. Oh, in fact, it's so funny. I was driving my daughter to Colorado, in just last month, and we stop at some, you know, diner place than any gas station in Utah. And I walk up to a vending machine, and I see these stickers in it from a property that I'd created in 2002 and sold sticker rights to and never seen the stickers. So it's stuff like that. So Atomic was created as a . . . a vehicle to be able to take some my own personal projects and kind of run them through. So believe it or not, this is the 20th anniversary this year of Atomic that's it's been around that long, but it hasn't really been, you know, up to its full potential after I after I left while brain, that's when I really started to concentrate on Atomic.

So you have a screen behind you that I think is rolling through some of your current adventures.

Yeah, so there are some projects in here. So I picked up - this is Captain Action. So I bought into a property from the 1960s called Captain Action, which is . . . got a great title, great name . . . was a popular toy, the guy who created GI Joe, this was the second toy you created. And then the third was the Mego superhero action figures. So I've been working with a have a couple of guys, I've got two partners on it, they kind of have been focused on the nostalgic side of things, they really concentrate on the 1960s. Now, I would say whether that's comics or art, or you know, and the 1960s toy line, which is very specific, my focus has been really on how to redevelop it for newer, younger audience that can engage in it, because it's, you know, it's a tricky property in that the original razor- razor blade concept for you by the Captain Action figure, and then you have all these licensed uniform sets with Spider Man, Batman, Buck Rogers, The Green Hornet, you know, it's a licensing nightmare. And you can't do that for the entertainment. So we're, we're looking at, I have a completely different concept set up for it.

So you now are a man of action yourself, you have a portfolio of opportunities.

Yes.

And you are your own shop now. If, if you wanted to maybe shout out as maybe my last question, you have things that you would like to connect with people on that are in your various wheel houses now? What are you looking for? And where are you trying to grow your next adventure?

So one of the things I'm really interested in is in publishing. The traditional publishing, you know, books, ebooks, side, because it's a great way to work story, get stories out graphic novels, etc. So that's something I'm really interested in. Also, casual games, as opposed to, you know, I'd love to do platform games, but they're very expensive. So I'm interested in learning whether or not there are those that would be interested in partnering on that I have a few people that I've been talking to, on that side of things, it's just because the entertainment side takes so long to get stuff up off the ground, not saying the games are any easier. But I think that it'd be great to talk more about that. And then I can say, lastly, on the collectible side of things, if there are categories that would, would be of interest. I've got another property called Window Ghosts, we've got something called Mega Weird. There are and then other projects, which is called Wicked Creatures, which is developed with a good friend Ed Eicht, who worked for Spielberg for years. Got some input from my good friend, Chris Walas, who created the Gremlins and won an Oscar for The Fly. So you know, those, those guys have been instrumental in getting that together.

Well, we have talked over many, many things, what have we not talked about that you'd want to mention as we wrap up?

I would say that, you know, the one thing that that I found in my lifetime career, whatever you want to call it, these days is that you don't always realize the moment when someone's influence has, has had an impact until sometimes, after the fact. You know, it sometimes takes years to realize that there was a nexus point or a point at which your life really diverged. And if it wasn't for sometimes it's a single person, sometimes it's a group of people. But I was thinking I can't you know, how do you how do you go back and thank them for their willingness to give you a chance or take a shot or do whatever. But

Have you gone back to thank them?

So yeah, I've some I've gone back and helped in ways that I've tried with everybody. There's one that I never quite figured out how to do what they want. And there was a little bit of quid pro quo with one of them who wanted some business and I couldn't throw it to them because of certain restrictions within the company that I was at. So I've always felt terrible about that. But But yeah, you know, I've tried my best to acknowledge it at a minimum, if not try and do something for them because without without their support, I wouldn't be here. And then the other thing is, having spoken in a couple of classes with other, you know, kids, I say kids, you don't realize the impact that you have on other people either where I talked about The Land Before Time. I worked on The Land Before Time when I was at Universal, completely uncredited. And the number of kids who look up and start paying attention, raise their hand and say, you know, I got involved in entertainment because of that franchise or because of those stories. So, you know, there's some there, that's also an nice too.

So how can people best reach out to you find you? And who would you like to find you?

Let's see, that's places well, first off, if you go to atomictoybox.com, you can take a look at what's there. There's ways ways to reach me on that site, with email and, and other. So happy to hear from folks that are interested in taking a look at what we do and what I what I do. But, you know, I think that I'm always looking for partners in crime, not necessarily true crime, but creating. . .

That's a whole nother podcast.

Yeah, that's it exactly. But yeah, I'm, I would say that, you know, the ask would be, you know, I'm always looking for distributors looking for folks interested in investing in content or content production. You know, the best kinds of partnerships. So those that, you know, we both get something out of it, that really helps drive things forward. Because, you know, the worst kind of deal you can make is one where one person makes out and the other doesn't just, that's a one time deal.

So, Mike, I'm so glad we met back in the day, and I'm so glad that you came on the podcast, and I will drag you back on for further conversations in your fascinating past. But thank you very much for this episode for joining us today.